David Postolski Hi Ilanit.
Ilanit Appelfeld Good to see you. Thanks for coming.
David Postolski Thank you for having me.
Ilanit Appelfeld Gosh how long has it been. I remember meeting you at the AIPPI,
David Postolski Yeah. That was about almost six years ago when we first met.
Ilanit Appelfeld unbelivable.
David Postolski Big IP conference in Israel.
Ilanit Appelfeld I remember that you mentioned that you were planning to move to Israel.
David Postolski Yes. Yes. And I actually did.
Ilanit Appelfeld So well done for moving to Israel.
David Postolski And I was I’ve been living in Israel now about 19 months. I moved from New York where I’m from and moved to Jerusalem and it’s been an amazing journey these last year and nine months. It’s been great.
Ilanit Appelfeld Excellent although I’ve seen you in and out of Israel. You know it’s the funniest Aliya that I’ve ever seen. But well, well done.
David Postolski Actually yeah it’s funny. The the the minister of interior actually took away my aliya benefits because I spent so much time outside of Israel.
Ilanit Appelfeld you’re Kidding.
David Postolski I’m spending about 50 percent of my time still in America. But spending more and more long periods of time here in Israel which is what the. Which is what I want to do I want that stability I want to be more here. But yes they definitely have obligations still In the states for sure.
Ilanit Appelfeld So I know that you have a lot of experience with working with accelerators. So could you explain to our listeners what you actually mean by accelerator and maybe a little bit about the differences between an incubator and an accelerator.
David Postolski Yes. So I am I’ve been an intellectual property attorney for about 17 years and about 10 years ago which is about almost 10 years into my career decided to devote my life to entrepreneurs and startups and different things. And one of the ways that I do that is I get involved in usually venture based like venture capital based organizations all around the world that are called accelerators that help launch different companies about eight to 10 companies every six months and I’ve been fortunate enough to work with a lot many different types of accelerators because they’re usually based like in mechanics or software or cannabis or something like that. So I’ve been fortunate enough to work with them as the intellectual property mentor teaching the companies educating the companies sometimes they become my clients sometimes they don’t about the benefits and value of intellectual property of a patent trademark or copyright or trade secret. And yeah it’s been it’s really been really fun. It’s been a great source of clients for me. But it’s also more than that it’s been great to to help these companies kind of build and grow and see the launch and you know I’ve been doing it for already 10 years so I’ve seen them some fail but I’ve seen many grow. But there is a big difference between what an accelerator is and what an incubator is and I think it’s important to highlight this because of the definition of what those are in Israel as well.
Ilanit Appelfeld Yes.
David Postolski So for all the listeners usually when you in it when you’re living in Israel you say you’re in Israel and you have an Israeli accelerator that usually is the U.S. equivalent of what an incubator is in the United States. So we’re talking about very small companies that need services and incubation like a real incubator they need love and you attention and they need money and they need to kind of grow themselves literally. So the Israeli accelerator equals the U.S. incubator.
Ilanit Appelfeld OK.
Ilanit Appelfeld My experience was working with the U.S. version of an accelerator which I don’t think there is a equivalent in Israel and that is it’s they’re not acting as an incubator. The accelerator in the United States accelerator is looking for companies that have already grown right they’ve already gone through the incubation process and they’re looking to accelerate their growth. So they already have companies or they already have they already have a company they already have founders already have intellectual property usually and they’re looking to further expand their portfolios further expand their markets though those are the types of companies the types of accelerators that I’ve worked with for the last 10 years. It’s a big difference between the type of companies.
Ilanit Appelfeld So if I am an Israeli company looking for funding and a bit of coaching management.
David Postolski Yes.
Ilanit Appelfeld Then I would I would look for an incubator in Israel right.
David Postolski Right, a small company and you’re looking for that you would look for an incubator in Israel.
David Postolski What’s become very popular for Israeli companies is they maybe have skipped the incubation process or maybe they’ve gone through an incubator and they look to Israel they look to United States or Europe to accelerate into that market and they’re looking for U.S. based accelerators.
Ilanit Appelfeld Absolutely. From what I’ve seen it’s something that very much describes the Israeli economy. Yet there’s a small startup start. You know they start small but technology is the driver and they very quickly arrive at some proof of concept. And then they want to accelerate it as fast as they can.
David Postolski Yes.
Ilanit Appelfeld With as little funding as they can.
David Postolski Yes.
Ilanit Appelfeld I know that you’ve identified an amazing niche which is the cannabis niche that you want to go into. So it’s especially exciting to hear but you want to set up an accelerator in the field of cannabis because being a patent attorney has a lot of experience in the cannabis world puts you in a better position to filter candidates. Was this the motivation behind the decision to set up the accelerator.
David Postolski It was I was also fortunate to get introduced to the world of cannabis. About 10 or 12 years ago with a Very large company today in the United States. But when I met them they were a small company. Just in the state of Colorado they were there now. Now they’re in you know seven or eight different countries. And so I was very fortunate enough to become their intellectual property council and grow them and it got me very interested in the field and I stayed involved and exactly what you just said like I for many for many years investors or companies would come and say you know what can we do. How can we move, how can we how can we move in this kind of a space when it’s not legal and sometimes it is legal in some states it is medical recreation all the drama in cannabis.
David PostolskiSo I was I I thought about it from a 30000 foot view and realized that there is something missing in this space and that is having some sort of accelerators specifically geared to launching small companies or maybe even you know whereas we say pre seed companies have no money. They’ve gotten no help from anybody or maybe a little help from friends and family but not from investors. And so I thought that was the niche that we were trying to solve. And and so we so yeah we decided to set up an accelerator in Israel. There’s so much activity here.
David PostolskiThere’s very little restriction on research and development in the fields of cannabis in Israel which is why we chose Israel not because I live here because really this is the place to do your research and development in cannabis.
Ilanit Appelfeld Oh you mean do the R.&D in Israel and take them outside…
David Postolski Correct correct to say there is you cannot it’s so hard to do your R &D in the United States because of the regulations and the fact that it’s not legal in it’s not legal in the United States well it has to be legal in all 50 states not just in 32 states as it is now. And so that causes restrictions from the FDA in research in universities and hospitals and and companies they don’t want to get to want to touch research and development so they usually want to do their research and development in Israel where there is very little restrictions.
Ilanit Appelfeld That explains a lot,
David Postolski Yeah, it does and so that’s Israel was like the perfect breeding ground for this. It’s also where you can grow right it’s the mecca of you know agricultural technology. And so yeah we decided to set up a cannabis accelerator again the Israeli definition of accelerator so it’s kind of like an cannabis incubator where you call it an accelerator here to help these companies grow locally but try to then launch in the United States or Canada or Europe or whatever it is. And so yeah it’s exciting. You know it’s not just about helping a company grow but there’s a lot of misinformation as you can imagine in this field of you know what’s patentable what’s not patentable right. And so it was important for this to have an educational component as well. Right. And so teach people about what is protectable what is not protectable. How do you export How do you import. How do you market something.
Ilanit Appelfeld Right. I love it. I tell you why you know we do due diligence for investors in the cannabis world and we the one thing that we see time and time again is that companies have the technology they don’t know what their end product is. The investor and the investor says do they have sufficient IP. Do we know what the product market applications are and oftentimes we see that you know they have no idea what the end product is going to look like. And if you can help companies identify or advise on different applications and take their IP and massage it to you know to correlate with a product then it’s an amazing asset for the industry to have.
David Postolski That’s one of the goals for sure exactly you said it perfectly. That’s exactly one of the goals. I think this industry more than any other. I mean you can probably apply that exact definite the exact example you gave to a lot of different industries but more so in cannabis because there’s so much unknown. It’s the Wild Wild West now. Right. So there’s no real laws there’s no real guidelines and so if you really are going to be the company that is going to rise to the top and be invested in then you must have your
intellectual property whatever that might be the patent the trademark whatever and you must then go through this process that you just described the due diligence process of understanding what is you have what is come before you what is unique What is novel What could you protect. Of course.
David Postolski So let’s say I’m a CTO of a company developing cannabis related technology I have a great technology. I’m not sure what the final product is. What do you think about when is the right time to file a patent application. I will elaborate a bit say for example that CTO knows that the intellectual property needs to be with some connection to the final product.
Ilanit Appelfeld So he doesn’t have to. He doesn’t want to have vague patents but at the same time he wants to communicate to the board if he has IP that his novel but he has a few patent pendings. What would you advise me if such a scenario.
David Postolski Yeah. So after the first few steps. Right the first thing that they should do even to describe to their board what it is they have they need to do some sort of patent search to determine it’s not going to be does it be exhaustive something to determine that even their idea they’re the product the formulation the device whatever has some sort of novelty or originality or something like that. After that then you can make an informed decision as a company or CTO and your board that maybe you should file a patent again to reiterate your point we don’t know what it’s going to be. We know that we need to do R&D but we know we also have to file a patent because we got to get ourselves a filing day. We’ve got to get ourselves in line. But we don’t know really know where it’s going.
David Postolski I think there’s a very simple solution to that that I think companies don’t appreciate and it’s probably due to the lack of I’ll call it education again about how the patent process could benefit you. And that is when you file a patent application they’re are all different types of patent application but let’s say we’ll just we’ll talk very generally if you file a patent application you can file that patent application from a actual and from a theoretical perspective. So what I mean by actual you’re going to describe the product that you now have that you think you’re going to have that your board is approved that you did the search on but you can also include different versions and embodiments from a theoretical standpoint. So if you’re working with the right patent attorney that has the correct science background or cannabis background in this case you can enlarge the scope of the patent application to include further iterations of how your product will be in five years and 10 years in 15 years you may never build it that way you may never make it that way you may never formulated that way but at least you know that on the day that you
filed your patent application in whatever country you choose you know that you have these future iterations these future embodiments that you may want to go forward that will make a board very happy right. Because from the board’s perspective they’ll be like oh OK we got it. So we’re not only filing on what we do have but what we could have. And so that gives you additional layers of protection that that that are important to have in your application. So I don’t think it’s a hard problem to solve. I just think it’s a I think I think boards boards and CEOs need to understand that better to do with do it that way than wait two years when your product development is done when your R &D is done because anything can happen in two years. I mean other companies could follow.
Ilanit Appelfeld My question to you now is if you file a very wide patent what happens if within 12 months you’re not ready to convert it to a utility and I’m sorry for making it hard.
David Postolski No it’s a good question.
Ilanit Appelfeld I see it with a lot of our clients that you know they’re not ready in 12 months to convert.
David Postolski Yeah it’s a great question. It’s it’s a very practical question. You’re right. It’s 12 months may not be enough to convert your provisional at your first filing your patent application to expand it out. But you know I think there I think there are a lot of their different strategies that you could adopt. I’m I’m I’m not a big fan of refiling a provisional because you push up your priority do you push up your filing date. But what I am a big fan of is. Bottom line convert your application with whatever you know whatever information you know whatever information you’ve learned, Convert it and under there are different strategies for patent filings in a specific country will take the United States for now where if you needed that extra year or two years or three years and so you have your application on file it’s going through the process and then you know your your client comes to you and says okay now we know what it’s going to be like and that is not in the application even with all the theoretical.
Ilanit Appelfeld Yes.
David Postolski Expanding it’s not there what do we do so you can file, there’s something called a continuation.
Ilanit Appelfeld Yes.
David Postolski In this that you continue. I can see you’re smile. Is this a continuation and CIPA is just a U.S.Tool.
David Postolski It is a U.S tool.
Ilanit Appelfeld the U.S Has the acrobatics of patent.
David Postolski Correct.
Ilanit Appelfeld Unfortunately is not shared by the rest of the world.
David Postolski Right Correct.
Ilanit Appelfeld And We have to live with this.
David Postolski You do but
Ilanit Appelfeld limitation.
David Postolski Agree. Listen I think I think if we’re if that’s why I think it’s important to do to limit the conversation to either it’s going to be you’re going to file an Israeli going to file in the United States but if you are going to you know target the United States the continuation practice of in being your own innovator being your own improving adding that to your patent in a procedural way is an excellent tool. But if you’re dealing with just the is let’s say the Israeli patent office where that’s not allowed then probably have to defer back to what you said is maybe refile when you’ve learned something or at the very least don’t file anything until you’re at a point where you can file but you must know that that is with major risk that somebody can file before.
Ilanit Appelfeld Absolutely.
David Postolski Yeah.
Ilanit Appelfeld Absolutely. I guess that what we do at the end of the day is we look at who we’re dealing with. We look at the technology and we decide you know the further away from the product the riskier it becomes to do the first filing. And we just like you said it’s all about education.
David Postolski even with all the acrobatics of the U.S. market you know to have a client that will come in with what we call like a napkin patent it’s like I don’t know anything about what how this is going to work but I know it can fit on three pages that could fit on it could be I can describe it in three paragraphs. So yeah we often deal with that issue too because you know not having a full fleshed out idea means you’re not going to get really the protection that you want. So what’s the point of filing at that point anyway if it’s not gonna get you anywhere. So I understand the problem but yeah you’re right. I think it’s a case by case basis, I think it’s a technology by technology basis but definitely in the world of cannabis I would you know air on the side of filing then not because there’s I wouldn’t call it a crowded field but I would call it a field that people are now starting to wake up and people are filing.
Ilanit Appelfeld Absolutely we see more and more traction in cannabis.
David Postolski Yeah.
Ilanit Appelfeld I think it’s only going to grow.
David Postolski Yes.
Ilanit Appelfeld And it’s really exciting. Can I refer clients to your accelerator.
David Postolski Yes of course we’re looking for companies, listen we want. We want companies that maybe have had some sort of investment from friends, family maybe they’ve done it on their own, We want companies that we would love companies that have some sort of product already a prototype, a formulation, a device something that they’ve made what they may be having sold. We want companies that want to look to the United States or Canada or South America or Europe where the markets are truly blossoming and we want companies that are sort of organized like we don’t want like three friends who you know. They have no connection between them. They have no company like it’s not that hard to start a company these days and it’s like you can think you can do it by yourself in Israel you might be able to. You can do by yourself in America something some organization where they each know what each is responsible for a team.
Ilanit Appelfeld What about bigger type companies with quite a few employees that want to have the go to market factor. They Having difficulty with marketing they need someone to handhold with the go to market element.
David Postolski Yes that is the ideal company. Very few and far between in this space but that is that is the idea, I mean if we can have a company that sets a base even in the United States cause we’re not just where we’ll be based. Be based physically in Israel but we will service companies from around the world. So we want companies that might be based in the United States or Israel that have markets or maybe have a small market but like you said their message is like you know maybe they’re like they’re Name is Canna something right. Very popular like everybody canna this or canna that. That’s like red flag immediately. Like you can be a little bit more creative than that and really can help you with your marketing. We can help you with your distribution.
Ilanit Appelfeld So it means with a brand with The story of the brand, The message.
David Postolski Yes the story the founders who are they had this happen, what’s your logo, what’s the meaning behind it Like yes Like how did this come to be and we want that fleshed out if possible, If not we’ll help you flesh it out.
Ilanit Appelfeld Excellent OK, I get that in trademarks we often have that problem in branding and you know you know just as I do that sometimes we’re asked to file trademarks unbelievably descriptive.
David Postolski Correct.
Ilanit Appelfeld That’s amazing to hear that it would be part of the services offered by the accelerator.
David Postolski Correct. If I I said if I hear one more Canna something I’m going to freak out. But I agree we definitely will provide all types of different services trademark marketing patent due diligence business formation the ethics of being in this industry and how to come across like an ethical company but everything to distribution and packaging and all that kind of stuff.
Ilanit Appelfeld So who’s the team behind the accelerator.
David Postolski So the team is currently myself and two other partners two of us are attorneys.
David Postolski I’m an attorney in America. My partner is Rafi Cohen who is an attorney here in Israel he’s from Ranjana. He also very involved in the cannabis industry for many years from corporate and M&A perspective from mergers and acquisitions perspective and it was yeah it was one day we saw each other at a conference here in Israel and got talking about the the the problem in the industry that I described earlier in the niche. He said Yalla as they say in Israel let’s let’s do this let’s try to get something together. And we brought in a third partner. He is used to live in Israel made made aliya moved to Israel then now lives in Colorado the epicenter of U.S. cannabis activity. Even before California his name is Josh Rubin and the three of us have created a company called Green Lift holdings and we have been working with a few investors and we plan to launch very soon and there’ll be more information about that hopefully in the
coming weeks. But the idea is to again launch six to eight companies. They can be based in Israel they could be based in the United States.
David Postolski Our physical location will be in in in in Israel in Tel Aviv and but we’ll have some sort of setup in the United States depending on where the companies are either in Colorado or Miami and we’ll be able to help them as well. So it’ll be a classic accelerator model 12 weeks 12 to 16 weeks. Mentors will come in service providers will come in patent attorneys will come in trademark attorneys will come in marketing you know that Israeli companies are the best to accelerate.
David Postolski Yes. I know this well.
Ilanit Appelfeld Because they have so much drive. I once worked with an accelerator in the UK and they were showing me the companies working at the accelerator and one was from Germany and from France and Spain and he was walking me through the projects and he said you know if you could find one Israeli company that could just come here and work from here for 10 weeks it would pay them to come. And I said you know what field. He said any field I just want to have their motivation here. And I just want them to impact everyone with their motivation. And I think that it’s it’s an amazing amazing place to be in when you want to accelerate projects.
David Postolski Agreed. There’s something about the Israeli spirit the mentality the drive the passion that in all my years of working in the United States I’ve never seen anything like it till I moved here. You know we may have coined the term entrepreneurship in America. But it’s been living and breathing here since the state of Israel has been born and call it necessity whatever it might be. It’s something palpable for sure in this country. Yeah.
Ilanit Appelfeld What is the one thing that you do in order to stay innovative over time.
David Postolski I love this question. This is a great question. So first of all I’m gonna say that I think that it is so important for an attorney. I’ll tell you what I’ll do in a second but it’s so important for an attorney to constantly be doing things out of the box in terms of their career in order to stay relevant as well as innovative is something that I tried to at my firm with the younger attorneys try to teach them because there is a I don’t I think it’s I don’t want to call it the millennial approach but I do think and maybe you can edit that out but I do think that there is something generational about you know thinking out of the box and being innovative as an attorney and so I just want to say that in terms of advice to younger attorneys you should always be innovative and I can tell you what I do. You must stay relevant. I mean there is absolutely no question about it the way I stay relevant is I’m constantly blogging I’m constantly writing I’m working on you know I I’ve been editors of books and stuff like that. I’m very involved in like professional associations like I’m trying to stay always in touch with what is happening in the law in a specific field and as well as the related fields around me. I know some attorneys I don’t give a s about that right. They really it’s so important to understand how you interconnect with other attorneys. one, because it could help you. We can get clients right because if you if you know other attorneys from other fields they can feed you clients that’s like the least of it. But it’s also
understand to you, no matter what bad reputation it gets we’re still really the first people that that that entrepreneurs or companies or big or small they come to do you know this person. Do you know that person do not get this done. You know what they’re and it’s so important to know those people know those services know those contacts so constantly keeping yourself involved whether it’s through writing or publishing or presenting or educating. That’s something that I’m constantly trying to do I want I want not going to rest on that. I don’t I want to I want to constantly be relevant and I want to constantly be relevant for my clients. I don’t want to I don’t want to be just stuck in a office somewhere not being in touch with what industry and innovation is up to. I like to be on top of that.
Ilanit Appelfeld Yeah I love it. What is a one piece of advice that you would give companies wanting to protect their cannabis technology.
David Postolski So I think the answer would probably go for everything but I think the one piece of advice I would have is please before you spend any sort of money on research and development and marketing and everything like that please try to visit a patent attorney try to get some clearance and peace of mind that that which you are embarking on is going to be worth it because it is the worst thing in the world when somebody comes to me big company big or small solo inventor to a group of inventors at a large company. It’s the worst thing in the world when they come to me saying here’s everything we have is everything we’ve done we’ve spent like fifty thousand dollars. We spent five thousand. I’ll give you a thousand dollars. We where we’re ready we’re ready to go. It’s the worst thing in the world for me to have to deliver bad news.
Ilanit Appelfeld You mean when you do a search.
David Postolski when we do a search at that point right so I’m saying they should they should come to us before they do that because it’s the worst thing for me to deliver bad news and I will deliver bad news sometimes right to to a degree.
Ilanit Appelfeld Do you always suggest a search ?
David Postolski I want there should be some some, doesnt have to be a search but some understanding of the market like like I agree like you sometimes you could just do a quick google search and be like oh well there’s like five other companies that are doing this.
Ilanit Appelfeld I know. You know listen I agree.
Ilanit Appelfeld But for the patent search side of things you know we I don’t necessarily agree that you know the patent search should be the first step correct. Because you know the philosophy there is a philosophy of don’t do a search Grant. Oh yeah. You will be limited in your way of thinking. Right. Your patent attorney will be limited in his vision of the products the patent search will be done by the U.S. patent attorney any U.S. Patent Office. Right. And he may find other things that you’re not going to find. And maybe the last point is that as an inventor you have this this duty to disclose right. Correct. And I may not want to disclose certain. Stuff that I may or may not know about. I agree with how we live with with these limitations.
David Postolski Listen I agree with everything you’re saying and the answer is not always a patent search. But you know classic entrepreneurial thinking. Do a SWOT analysis they call science or some angry app something. Yeah. If you don’t wanna do the browser it’s fine because of all the reasons you mentioned 100 percent but some understanding of the market and where you fit in is really important not for your band but for your market traction.
Ilanit Appelfeld Yeah I believe I’m completely there. Yeah. Yeah right.
David Postolski But I know I’m a big believer in patent searches for one reason that you that I think you kind of touched on tangentially which is listen a patent application is gonna be your time is your only shot to tell your story to the Patent Office as to how you have something truly innovative and novel in light of what’s come before you. Right that’s that’s really way your patent writing. And so it’s important to have a patent search to understand that right ? Yes it could maybe limits in some ways but in some ways it could really further expand on how different you are from others so that when the patent office meets you right they’re not gonna meet you physically but when they meet your patent application they know this is what they’re trying to protect. Yes I’m going to give it to them.
Ilanit Appelfeld Which is why we always recommend doing the search before the conversion to the utility of your case. Excellent idea. That’s you know what I feel comfortable with.
David Postolski Yeah that’s my advice I think. I think it’s. I think it’s important for people to know where they stand. That’s all you know. Yeah.
Ilanit Appelfeld Yeah. So what can we say about education.
David Postolski I’m a big believer in education.
David Postolski I often joke when I teach students and not in the normal age of the student I teach is usually like a master’s degree student so they’re already older and so I often joke to them it’s too late. Like when I’m about to teach you it’s already too late for you right. You’re so socialised and culturised to not know what is the value of intellectual property what is the value of the things that you create. I’m a big fan of education for the young like do you know kids through kindergarten to 12th grade. Those are when the students are most open and I know least in the I teach we fail and believe about attaching students the value of what they create at those ages and so it’s my mission to teach students like amazing should happen here in Israel.
Ilanit Appelfeld well I want to tell you that when my children were younger I went to their school and I had the patent class. I love it. Perfect. So every year I would come with his
PowerPoint giving them examples and each year I gave them a project of what would you invent if you had this problem. And now the things that came up in this class were unbelievable. Oh my God I love. And once what I did was we took a class of 30 kids and we said OK there is a lot of accidents on the road. Your parents are very connected through the phone. We need to think of inventions to do with road safety. What would you do to help your parents be less distracted by phones. I love it and that the results were amazing.
David Postolski We should more like that. Like there needs to be there needs to be more human needs going more parents like you need going into their kid’s schools and teaching them.
David Postolski Let’s do a program for children. We should. I love it. They’re so creative now.
David Postolski They’re not affected by anything at that age right. Maybe a little social media they’re affected by both but maybe in a positive way. But Their minds are so creative and open so the fact that they could invent something and then understand how to protect and maybe even monetize it at that age. These are the future enterprenours.
Ilanit Appelfeld The first prize by the way was to file a provisional exit for the winning project.
David Postolski And since whatever happened to the winning project ?
Ilanit Appelfeld We got a provisional filed.
David Postolski You did and nothing happened to the actual solution ?
Ilanit Appelfeld We didn’t have the necessary funds to get this further.
David Postolski Ah, the problem always.
Ilanit Appelfeld But the spark in their eyes was amazing.
Ilanit Appelfeld Thanks David.
David Postolski Thank you Ilanit.
Ilanit Appelfeld I think it was a great talk.
David Postolski Very fun.
Ilanit Appelfeld And let’s go have coffee.
David Postolski Awesome Yalla.